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Discussing the origins of words and phrases, in English or any other language. Powered by @r_channels @reddit2telegram
I have coined a phrase
I am leaving this here, so that when people wonder who started saying this, there is a pin in history.
Around the house, I say. "I can't like it." I use this phrase when I have tried to like something and failed. I started using it in an online gaming community recently and fully expect to hear it come back around, eventually.
Ahh my mark on history ;)
https://redd.it/1cdkqm5
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Why do we say “antisemitic” and “islamophobic” and not “judeophobic” and “anti-Islamic”?
https://redd.it/1cdea0d
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Earliest usages of “dawg” to refer to a friend/fellow
My uncle told me about how he & his gang of friends would call each other this every so often in the late ‘70s - early ‘80s, but after looking it up on the internet it seems the earlier the term was used (in the aforementioned context) was in the ‘90s
https://redd.it/1cd8s7z
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Etymology of murmuration?
I researched this a long time ago and had it in my head that murmuration (as in the movement of flocks of birds) is derived from the sanskrit word mumurah which means "crackling fire".
This made sense to me visually, since the flames of a fire kind of undulate in a similar fashion to a starling murmuration.
But I just looked it up again and this link is nowhere to be found online, so I'm left with 2 questions:
1) Am I a linguistic genius whose subconscious just came up with this de novo?
2) What is the actual etymology of murmuration?
https://redd.it/1cd60vu
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Heart vs. Hart
It seems to me that both heart & hart share etymological origins ultimately in proto Indo-European
-ker for horn.
If you disagree, I am all ears to new information.
As an aside this is my first post and I absolutely love etymology.
https://redd.it/1cd13i8
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"decoy" - from medieval hunting technique to military training
Dutch and English are very closely related, we obviously have a lot of cognates. But I wanna talk about loan words between the two languages. Dutch has taken on a lot of English words ever since the 1950's, but those are straight up copies from American English. More interesting are the loanwords that came into use during the 16th - 18th century, when England and Netherlands spend a lot of time at war, but also were both seafaring nations and sailors from both countries joined eachother a lot. This lead to sailors from both nations interchanging words.
- English has the word "decoy", according to Cambridge Dictionary: "something or someone used to trick or confuse people, especially something or someone that is not what they appear to be"
- "decoy" comes from the Dutch word "eendekooi". It literally translates to "duck" + "cage", but an "eendekooi" is actually a pond were domestic ducks are kept to attract wild ducks. This way the "kooiker"/"cager" can lure the ducks into traps, rather than hunting them.
https://redd.it/1ccyacx
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Is the word "etymology" itself an etymological fallacy?
An etymological fallacy is defined by Wikipedia as "an argument of equivocation, arguing that a word is defined by its etymology, and that its customary usage is therefore incorrect."
Like this cheeky example:
>Steve: I think it is fantastic that you and Sylvia are getting married!
>Chuck: I cannot believe you think my getting married only exists in my imagination! That is what fantastic means, after all.
"Etymology" comes from the Greek "étumos" meaning "true" or "real."
Annoyingly, I can't actually find much about the coining of the term. There's a smokescreen of the whole discussion around etymology itself that you can't get very meta with the term. (Google AI was happy to give me some misinformation on the matter though)
It was used in 14th century French and of course derives from Latin and ultimately Greek. But does the term "etymology" actually go back that far? Or was it constructed in 14th century French? Were Ancient Greeks using the term "etymology" when they attempted the study?
I can't say with any certainty what I suggested in the title. But if you take the etymology of "etymology" at face value, it does look like whoever coined the term "etymology" (700 years ago? A thousand?) may have intended it to mean the study of a word's "real meaning" rather than simply a word's historical origin, doesn't it?
https://redd.it/1ccuj3o
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“Report” meaning a communication and “report” meaning a noise - is there a connection?
When we went to get fireworks on the 4th of July I remember some of the fireworks bearing labels to the effect of “Caution: flames with report” or something like that. As someone who knew the word “report” to mean a communication (written or spoken) of some sort - like a book report or news report - I thought the label seemed weird until I realized that “report” can also mean “a loud noise”.
Is there a connection between those senses? I suppose it makes sense if you think back to how news was often disseminated centuries ago - namely, the “town crier” coming forth with a report of some major event, often punctuated with the “report” of cannons. Does that seem right?
https://redd.it/1ccj2nv
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Marsala/masala
I thought for sure there would be some sort of connection, possibly relating to spices or aroma or some such, but was really surprised to find absolutely nothing.
Marsala: " The arrival of the Arabs at the nearby Granitola mount in the 8th century entailed the resumption of commerce and the start of the rebirth of the town. The town was renamed Marsa ʿAlī "ʿAlī's harbour" or maybe, Marsa ʿāliyy, "Big harbour", for the width of the ancient harbour, placed near Punta d'Alga. Another possible derivation is Marsa Allāh, "God's harbour". "
Masala: Borrowed from Classical Persian مصالح (maṣālih, “materials; spices”), plural of Arabic مَصْلَحَة (maṣlaḥa). Compare Assamese মচলা (mosola), Bengali মশলা (mosla), Santali ᱢᱚᱥᱞᱟ (môsla).
Even stranger that "masala" has an Arabic root, and yet has no "Allah" connection, which would've indeed been a potential tie between the two. Alas!
https://redd.it/1ccb6q4
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Foofaraw
https://www.dictionary.com/e/word-of-the-day/foofaraw-2021-04-14/
https://redd.it/1ccapm9
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Is there a prefix that acts to include all variables to a specific suffix? Ex. If you want to discuss all forms of “___icides”
If I am speaking of the group of chemicals that are pesticides, fungicides, herbicide…is there a catch-all prefix for that?
Another examples: -arch. -cracy etc.
https://redd.it/1ccazwg
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Diamond - adamant
"Diamond" and "adamant" are doublets, both descending from Latin adamantem, from a Greek word that might mean "untamed" or might have been a loanword.
Share your favorite doublets below!
https://redd.it/1cc98x6
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/r/Etymology is BACK!
I have confiscated the subreddit and reopened it.
Our founder, /u/ggk1, is welcomed back :) The mod who bricked the subreddit was removed (not by me; I am not sure if they left or if they were removed as part of this re-opening).
I understand this closure was the result of the foofaraw around the third party app situation, but that has passed. I would like to see this community thrive once again.
To that aim, if you wish to be added as a moderator, please comment below and I will send you some vetting questions.
I myself am not super active as a mod, but I hate to see communities get bricked. I intend to make sure there are some good mods back on the team, so that submissions can resume.
Welcome back word nerds. <3
https://redd.it/1cc1e3y
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I'm not sure if this strictly counts as etymology, but it seems like the best place to ask. Why do older generations tend to end messages with "..."
I've noticed this trend among people over 40 to end messages with "..."
My parents, basically any manager I've had at work and even currently my real estate agent.
My boss sent me an email that just said "Thanks my name, good stuff..."
I think anyone my age bracket would interpret that as sarcastic. No one within ten years either side of my age does this but people over 40 do it regularly.
I don't know if this question is strictly etymology but is there some sort of origin for this way of communicating? Maybe it made more sense in older forms of communication tech?
https://redd.it/146hgjx
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A humble challenge
My dear etymologists!
I’m in the midst of worldbuilding for my new Dungeons and Dragons campaign and have reached the “pantheon creation” phase. In previous campaigns I have just grabbed various relevant words from languages such as Icelandic and Latin and stirred for deity names. Also, Aedra and Daedra just sound cool being a TES fan.
Accordingly, my challenge to you is this: if you were to absolutely geek out and go as niche into your realm of etymology as possible to create some epic or goofy deity names and prayers, what would those names be (and why are they so cool in your professional opinion)? The more history, the better! I swear, I'm totally not outsourcing a fictional world history to real-world experts ;-)
The unsuspecting denizens of Morphon thank you in advance!!
https://redd.it/1462ys7
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What’s the deal with peppers?
Chilis, chillies, chiles, peppers, etc.
Why do these spellings and terms seem to be used interchangeably and where did they originate?
https://redd.it/1cdepah
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Why do we say Pakistani
Why do we say Pakistani?
So, I’m not sure if this is exactly the same thing in English, but in my language (french), Pakistan seems to be the odd one out when it comes to the population’s name (when talking about stan/istan countries).
From what I understand, the stan/istan terminology essentially means « land of ». This is why someone from Kirghizistan is a Kirghiz, someone from Tadjikistan is a Tadjik, etc. So why is it that we say Pakistani? Shouldn’t we be saying « Pak » or « Pakis »?
I tried to find an answer to this, but couldn’t, so if anyone has any idea, tell me!
https://redd.it/1cdaqp1
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Looking for help finding or spelling correctly a certain name. Pronounced “On-Drill”?
Hi all. So I’m doing some research on my family tree, and reached a stump. I’m trying to find someone specific, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how to spell their middle name correctly. I was wondering if anyone might have an idea of what name this is? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated!
All my mom knew was that the name was pronounced “On-drill”, and she was assuming the spelling would be French, and thought it was spelled “Aundreil”.
But I’ve had NO luck finding it whenever I look it up by either that spelling, the pronunciation spelling, or any alternative spellings I can think of.
So I figured asking in the etymology sub might have an idea? I’d love to know where the name comes from too, it’s a beautiful name and I love learning new things about language!
Thank you in advance!
Edit: I realize I left the info on the person pretty vague and that might increase the difficulty in pinpointing the exact name. The person from my family was my paternal grandfather, so a male, and the only other thing I know (or am pretty sure of) is that his ethnicity was your general white American. His wife was born around 1931, so I’m assuming give or take 10 years in guesstimating the time period he would have been born in. California born I believe.
https://redd.it/1cd79qf
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‘Done away with’
Looking for an origin for the phrase ‘done away with’ or ‘to do away with’. Sounds like it could be Hiberno-English ? Maybe some sort of Anglicised something. Can’t find anything on google! Help me out :)
https://redd.it/1cd05wk
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The surname Lopez comes from the Latin word for wolf, lupus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%B3pez
>López or Lopez is a surname of Spanish origin. It was originally a patronymic, meaning "Son of Lope", Lope itself being a Spanish given name deriving from Latin lupus, meaning "wolf". Its Portuguese and Galician equivalent is Lopes, its Italian equivalent is Lupo, its French equivalent is Loup (or Leu), its Romanian equivalent is Lupu or Lupescu and its Catalan and Valencian equivalent is Llopis.
It feels pretty obvious now that I see it, but I never made the connection until I was looking up the origin of the French surname Loup.
https://redd.it/1cd23bt
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сумасШЕДший
insane?
https://redd.it/1ccz7sj
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Lumbar spine, humble pie
I had the idea for this post months ago but was dismayed to find the sub shut down. So glad it's back. Anyways:
I have a bad lower back and make sure to have lumbar support. I knew "lumbar" referred to the lumbar spine area in the lower back, but I was curious what the word "lumbar" meant, and when I looked it up I stumbled on an interesting bit of etymology linking "lumbar" to the "humble" in "humble pie"-- a word that is etymologically unrelated to the "humble" which means lowly or unproud.
"Lumbar" comes from the Latin lumbaris, meaning "pertaining to or situated near the loins," from lumbus ("loin"). (EO:lumbar)
The Middle English word "numbles," meaning "edible viscera of animals, entrails of a deer," also derives from the diminutive from of Latin lumbus (lumulus) by way of Old French nombles. (EO:numbles)
It was through rebracketing of this word ("a numble..." --> "an umble...") that what was originally "numble pie," a lowly peasant's dish made of animal entrails, became commonly misheard/known as "umble pie." (wiki:rebracketing) Furthermore, the prevalence of dropping initial "h" sounds in Middle English made the "umble" of "umble pie" a homophone of "humble." This, as well as the pie, itself, being a lowly and "humble" dish, seems to have led to the belief that it was actually called "humble pie" and to the subsequent use of phrases like "eating humble pie" or "being served humble pie" to mean "to cause [someone/something\] to be humbled." (wiki:humble\_pie)
So the "humble" in "humble pie" was originally "numble," and it referred to an actual medieval pie made of animal entrails. Just thought that was neat.
https://redd.it/1ccv1dd
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The word “evening” - are the two senses related?
The word “evening”, of course, is usually used as a noun that refers to the transition period from day into night - but it’s also the -ing participle form of the verb “to even”, meaning to make two or more things or quantities equal to one another, such as tying the score in a game.
Anyway, is there a connection between the two meanings of the word? I suppose that “evening” (in the time-of-day sense) is called such because it’s the period when the sun draws even with the horizon after having been above it all day - does that seem right?
https://redd.it/1cciut0
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-tor as a suffix is masculine. The feminine is -trix
These are Latin derived words. Obvious example is dominator dominatrix. Have fun with dictatrix, janitrix, or victrix.
https://redd.it/1cceutu
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The word 'mortar'.
How did this word come to be the name of 3 wildly distinct nouns? Firstly you have mortar the building material, a mixture of sand and cement. Then you have the mortar part of a mortar and pestle for crushing spices and nuts. And then it also describes a specific old lightweight artillery weapon. Is this just purely coincidental? Would love if someone could weigh in as this has been on my mind for some time now.
https://redd.it/1ccban8
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When did we start saying “come on it’s x year”
When someone says something bigoted it’s pretty common to respond “come on man its 2024!” But does anyone know what year it became common to say that?
https://redd.it/1ccactb
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Limousine
https://www.aidanem.com/category/word-family.html
https://redd.it/1cc4f9a
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r/etymology is read-only. Without third-party apps, this community cannot be sufficiently moderated.
This subreddit has built up a huge wealth of valuable information and entertaining posts about etymology. This has only been possible through the joint work of an enthusiastic community and a dedicated moderation team to keep our content informative, relevant, researched, and reliable.
With Reddit's decision to force out third-party apps through impossible pricing, and their subsequent refusal to reconsider, it's no longer possible for me - as the sole active moderator of the community - to continue to ensure that content meets the community's standards on suitability.
Making the community private on the 12th was done with advance notice to other moderators, who have not objected or reversed the action. The r/etymology team has thus far been unanimous on the protest. Reddit's failure to respond with any cooperative compromise has been thoroughly disappointing - though not entirely surprising.
However, in the interest of maintaining the online availability of the huge corpus of existing content, and following a high number of requests for access that highlight the value or r/etymology as a resource for word origins, I've switched the subreddit from private to read-only. It's likely that Reddit will override this at some point in the future, but personally I can't meet the needs of the community without suitable mobile moderation tools.
If the call from the community is to fully open back up, I'll remove automod settings that necessitate mod review, turn the community public, and - with great reluctance - step down as a moderator. I won't link elsewhere, but I do recommend that readers educate themselves about growing federated internet communities. Reddit is not the only place on the web that we can share knowledge, hold discussions, and ask questions.
This community means a lot to me. You are the people who ask "why?" until the answers are totally exhausted, and then ask "why?" some more. Moderation can be a time-consuming endeavor, but it's been fun and rewarding to help prune and grow this community, and that's thanks to you all. Keep being curious, keep sharing knowledge, and keep asking "why?" ❤️
https://redd.it/14bnz4q
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Spices starting with the letter "c"
So I was cleaning out my spice cupboard (as you do) and there were so many spices with the soft c (cinnamon, cilantro/coriander ) and hard c (cumin, cayenne pepper, chili, cloves, curry powder, cardamom, caraway seeds) I put them on one shelf. The other shelf had everything else (fennel, oregano, baking spice, mustard seeds, salt and pepper, paprika etc). Are there reasons why so many start with "c"?
https://redd.it/146dakc
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When does a language become "official"?
Aren't languages set up like the LOTR or Elder Scrolls technically real since they have set up rules and what not?
Is it only official if it's used as a nation's or peoples' territory language? If those 1000s indigenous language count, why not those "fictional" ones?
https://redd.it/1462lg5
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