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Is it just me, or is the way they use metric in the books a bit uncanny?
I am just rereading the books and noticed that they often use fractions of metric measurements. For example a quarter of a million kilometers.
As a native metric user I would have said two hundred fifty thousand kilometers.
Half a kilometer or something I get, but quarters and thirds in combination with metrics feels a bit uncanny.
Anybody else noticed this?
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Murtry went to Ilus on the assumption that his might would equal his right. And because we're so drawn to an antagonist that is justifiable in their actions, we're eager to accept that he isn't wrong. But the thing is, just because Murtry was never "wrong" doesn’t mean he was ever in the right. So by no means do you "gotta give it to Murtry".
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You do not, under any circumstances, have to "give it to Murtry"
I keep seeing posts on here every now and then about people saying they agree with Murtry or how they think he's in the right but he takes it too far, et cetera. This is a mistake. You don't have to do that. In fact, you shouldn't do that.
You don't have to give Murtry a damn thing, because Murtry is wrong from the very beginning.
It is my opinion that Murty is one of the best depictions in fiction of how a fascist actually behaves. Like, Murtry behaves exactly how you would see a fascist behaving in real life. He picks up a rationale or ideology as it’s convenient and then drops it the second that it bars his path to his goals. It wasn’t even until his speech at the end that I realized it. Before then I just thought he was a psychopath.
His whole monologue at his last confrontation with Holden, about how there isn’t civilization where they’re at, is where he finally goes mask off about being a fascist. Murtry states that "civilization has a lag time". But civilization is where laws exist. Literally every fucked up thing he does he couches in the pretext that he’s being lawful about it, that he's following procedures, but then he insists law doesn’t exist there yet. The law is real and justifies everything he does with literally everyone else, but once confronted with someone who is actually lawful and more right than himself? Laws aren't real here anyways, so he was actually right the whole time because it’s people like him that create the laws that men follow ("You should've stayed home until I built a post office"). He sees himself as an ubermensch. Murtry used the logic and guidelines of the RCE because they were convenient; then dropped them once they no longer suited his aims and made a complete reversal on his argument so he could be "right" with Holden. He constantly set up violent responses, like the rigged shuttle, like the militia on the Edward Israel, “as a contingency” but only ever pushes situations in the direction to justify his use of them. He is a person with an immense amount of power and control on Ilus, yet every escalation is only ever a "natural and necessary" response to someone else. It's never Murtry's fault for making things worse.
You see his mask slip off a lot with Amos because he makes Murtry uncomfortable. He is what Murtry wants people to think he is. You see, Amos is a nihilist. He is as close to amoral as one can be. Amos is a gun. Just an object that can impact the world around it. It doesn’t have morals or feelings or motivations. It just has action. Amos attaches himself to people that he trusts to make the right decision, because Amos knows that he will make monstrous ones. But our friend Murtry has ambitions, he has goals. He says sure says he doesn't though. He only wants to protect RCE interests. He only wants to protect RCE personnel. Yet he's constantly putting those personnel at risk. He rigged an RCE shuttle into a suicide bomber. He's so obsessed with being better than Holden and being more right that he abandons everyone that he's allegedly protecting so he can chase Holden down, and then he manufactures a scenario in order to kill Amos and Holden. It is a mistake to believe that, as the end all be all of RCE security, he had no choices in the actions he takes. He is the decision maker for RCE. He is not a gun, he is not an object to be used. Instead of what the fascist says, you must look at what the fascist does (see The Anatomy of Fascism by Robert Paxton). What Murtry does, is sort the world into us/them boxes and then use whatever’s most convenient to explain why he is morally superior to the them. The belters are terrorists, the whole planet is RCE property, the non-violent belters are squatters. And then he acts with unchecked impunity and calls it righteous because the them is less human or has a lesser claim than he does. At least until he’s called out for the depravity of his actions. Then he changes his narrative to something else that makes whatever it was he did sound just reasonable
James S.A. Corey: After 'The Expanse' and 'The Mercy of the Gods'
https://youtu.be/OWSo3qSKAuM?si=6gYwKoLcx2VqqThc
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How much is three thousand dollars?
In season 4, Murtry gripes about getting a $3,000 bonus for completing a difficult security job. Even if what he was doing was almost certainly the wrong thing to do, that seems like a shockingly small bonus for any kind of security/police/military work at present values. Extrapolating inflation trends from the past century into the next century, $100 in from the year 2000 will have the purchasing power of $10.36 by the year 2100. Did Murtry get a $300 bonus for like... killing a bunch of people for a security megacorp?
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1/4 done with Cibola Burn, and so far to my surprise I kinda sympathize with Murtry
I'm at chapter 13 and Murtry has just shot Coop. While shooting him for a threat was obviously sociopathy, it was also (although unbeknownst to Coop) totally justified. Coop was a terrorist and a murderer, without any regrets for killing innocents. Murtry followed his instinct, and his instinct was right.
As they land, Murtry isn't polite nor is he diplomatic - but he's not hostile either. He's on edge, which again feels justified given his team has been attacked before they even set foot on the planet. I'd be very edgy, too, especially if I was head of security. He's a dick, but almost everyone he's spent a year travelling with has been murdered. And while there's many good colonizers helping them, it's also clearly shown that many of the belters almost-openly rejoice in the killing.
Given what we know from the TV show, I'll probably revert from this opinion as I continue listening, but so far I feel a lot more sympathetic towards him and his cause than I thought I would. Excellent writing, very nuanced and not as black/white as I was expecting.
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I'm having a hard time with PDC rounds while on a burn
Physics class is in session... So I've finished through book 6. I've read through plenty of slug-fests at this point. There's this issue I'm have with pdc rounds, and it's distracting me.
If a ship is on a hard burn giving chase to another ship, firing their PDC rounds straight ahead would kill the firing ship, no? Firing transversely to the ship would be no problem, but longitudinal to the ship would be a death sentence.
Once a PDC round leaves the barrel it's traveling at a constant speed. However, on an epstein drive equipped ship, the ship is constantly accelerating. So a ship would accelerate into its own PDC round, holing the ship, no?
The only solution I can come up with is that a chasing ship would have to bear off to fire their PDC rounds, which tactically would only serve to increase the distance between ships. Furthermore, Corey hasn't put that language to paper, that I've seen. Please set me straight, fellow expane enthusiasts.
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Regarding the Europa Clipper mission
Can we all agree that when it finds any sign of bio-luminescent jellyfish, we nuke that place into a fresh ring for Jupiter?
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Catching Little Things Since the Auctions
Read the books twice, only watched the series through once. Started a Rewatch the other night and now that I've seen all the props up close and out of universe through the auction, I'm loving all the silly little things I'm noticing.
Particularly the reuse of the Cant/Knight deck. Episode 2 as they frantically try to close the airlock manually, and seeing the proper doors very lightly and rickety rocking back and forth before gently tapping together somehow making a solid enough locking they can pressurize the cabin. It's so silly looking to me now but it's such a nice little production charm knowing it's practical and relatively low budget versus all the super impressive CG ship and space scenes.
Anyone else have favorite little things like this? I'd love to keep an eye out for them as I rewatch!
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Ruiz wtf! ( up to Abaddon's Gate spoilers sans novellas)
Anyone know why Ruiz basically just ousts Sam to Ashford while she is trying to buy time for Holden and the Crew at the end of Abaddon's gate? I thought they were on the same side? Granted, maybe she didn't know that Ashford would kill Sam based on her answer, but couldn't be that dumb due to all the violence and mutiny that happened before hand. RIP Sam. Finished the book and on book 4 so please keep the scope to the end of book 3.
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Can anyone help
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Addictive Show
Started watching Season 1 again last night and had forgotten how addictive this show is, especially first season after the first episode. You just want to know what happens and have to watch the next episode.
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Spoilers Books 1-3 Should I continue with this series?
I'm conflicted about whether it is worthwhile for me to continue reading this series. I was hoping someone could give me a spoiler free recommendation on whether the rest of the series would be more or less enjoyable to me.
I've just finished Abaddon's Gate and I love the world building and the overarching plot of the protomolecule and the ancient alien civilization. But in each book I have found the main plotlines, especially the zombies in book two and the fight on the Behemoth in book three, not very compelling. And I don't find myself invested in any of the characters.
I want more aliens!
It is almost comical how much of a backseat the alien civilization plotline took in the second half of Abaddon's Gate. The crazy shit that happens on the station has seemingly no impact on anyone else. And very little convincing is needed for everyone to believe that Holden has been communicating telepathically with this alien civilization?
As a baseline for your recommendation, I read the Three Body Problem series and absolutely loved it. Does the series become more, or less, like the Three Body Problem series as it progresses?
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Isn’t Duarte Plain Wrong?
>!In the epilogue of Persepolis Rising, Duarte says to Holden “Never in human history have we discovered something useful and then chosen not to use it.” which is just wrong isn’t it? History is littered with examples of humanity finding a tool, realizing it was dangerous, then abandoning said tool. Leaded gasoline, asbestos, ODSs in refrigerant and hairspray, etc. And it’s not like this is even something those in power can kick down the road to the next generation like greenhouse emissions are today. Using the gates enough to anger the goths has an immediate effect of the device going through the ring immediately disappearing. You can’t abuse the system until overtime it’s too late. You just have to play by the rules whether you like it or not.!<
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This story was perfect
Just finished Leviathan Falls and I’m in love with everything this series is and I’m not sure I’ll ever enjoy any other piece of media as much I’ve enjoyed these books.
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Who "wins" at the end of the Expanse in your opinion?
I have just finished my second watch of the shows and will be getting the ebooks.
Just curious if you guys think anybody "wins" by the end.
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enough that he won’t face a real consequence. That’s exactly how fascism operates. And fascism loves to paint itself as nihilism. But then there's Amos, the nihilist, who doesn't give a damn about either side. He's just there. Only he's not making rules. He isn't pretending. So Murtry gets uncomfortable with him and tries to push him into conflict so he can get rid of him. Because a fascist can't stand to confront their insecurities, that defeats the point of being a strongman.
He’s subtle and manipulative in very insidious ways. It’s a remarkable talent of charismatic fascists like Murtry to market the ideology of fascism to people without ever making them realize what they’re signing up for until it’s too late. None of those engineers in the militia ever thought they were doing anything more than engaging in a social club, except Koenig. And why the engineers? They aren't trained fighters. But that's exactly why. They are not trained fighters. They have no idea what a prudent and effective military leader looks like. They have no context for what is security and what is barbarism. They're all men who have a vague idea of what protecting people is and they have that molded by their worst instincts, at the direction of a man that insists that belters are subhuman. Most of them don't even know how to handle a gun at first. So he picks them, and they're all earthers. After all, it's just prudent, right? The squatters are all belters and there shouldn't be a conflict of interest in a security force. It isn't until Koenig dies that the rest of them realize what they were doing and how far they took it. It took the shock of it to realize just how much the boiler had been turned up and how far they had been radicalized.
And then finally, he loses. And then he talks about "natural law," about the "divinity of violence." Don't you understand? He only behaved how people have always behaved. He did nothing new and violence is the only way these things have ever happened. In fact, you are the fool because you're too blind or naïve or pious to accept that this is just the way things are. What he did wasn't good or bad, idiot. It's just how things are. Again the fascist cosplays the nihilist. The truth out of his own mouth is that he never came to Ilus with the intent to a find a peaceful and humanitarian solution with the colonists. He came to conquer, he came to spill blood. He came with his head full of thoughts about Manifest Destiny. And he basked in every body left in his wake. And then he had the audacity to try to convince Holden of all people that he was right.
What’s so good about the writing is that this cosplay is seems to keep fooling the readers. There’s so many posts on here about how “Murtry is right” or “I think Murtry is an asshole but I can’t disagree with him” except he isn’t and you can. Murtry was never right. He’s clearly operating in bad faith the entire time. He’s manipulating the situation and rules so that he can play his little warlord game. He never attempts to make peace. He knows full well that every "compromise" he makes is unreasonable or unrealistic. It's just the pretext he needs for his next round of killing. A formality, so that when more bodies pile up he has a plausible enough excuse to keep his position long enough for the next round of killing to start. He even acknowledges that the authority of RCE doesn't exist there because by the time they get a chance to weigh in on anything that has happened, all of it would've already happened. But then everything he does is "according to RCE policy/procedure". That's bullshit and he knows it and he knows that everyone around him knows it. He doesn't care. He's the one with the power and he loves it. He chose to go to a place where he could escape the rules of society so he could enforce his own rules with the barrel of a gun and live out a conqueror’s fantasy.
And the reader? Well, they love to jump on here and talk about how Murtry “isn’t wrong” or "made good points" but the truth is that he is and he doesn't. Murtry was always the bad guy.
Martian demographics
In the books it says Chinese, East Indian and Texan people colonised the mariner valley, Alex whilst looking ethnically Indian speaks with a southern accent. Is there any more details on what Mars is like ethnically of which people colonised where on Mars, of course it would probably be stupid for the show to focus on such small details but I was surprised at how many Martians seemed to be (looks wise) 100% of one race considering it’s society would’ve had to look past race to survive, with no internal or external prejudice I would’ve imagined mars to be a lot more inter-racial unless of course very specific groups colonised one part of the planet then another, another part of Mars. Sorry if it’s stupid just a 1AM thought whilst rewatching the show.
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My cat really enjoying Persepolis Rising
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My favorite part of Cibola Burn by far...
...is Alex nailing Chief Engineer Koenen with the railgun out of the blue. It was so far from what I expected to happen, and I burst out laughing when I read it. It's totally within Alex's character to get bored and pissed off enough to use a ship killing railgun to smoke a single guy.
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How did spoiler survive 30 years without contact.
I know that all of the colonies required trade to survive until they were able to get self sufficient, Like Auberon and Bara Gaon. But what about Laconia? How did they survive 30 years without any trade with the other colonies? Was this ever mentioned because I don’t remember reading anything about it.
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Citizen Sleeper 2: Starward Vector
Fans of Citizen Sleeper rejoice: a sequel is coming out in 2025!
For those of you who don’t know, the first Citizen Sleeper was a role playing game about struggling to survive on a space station. As a broken down android you can’t take anything for granted, least of all the continued functioning of your own body. It’s one of the few video games I’ve played with writing that isn’t just functional but actually enjoyable to read, and it reminds me a lot of the scenes set on Ceres in The Expanse.
Citizen Sleeper 2 promises more of that. From the Steam description:
>A tabletop-inspired RPG, in a human and heartfelt sci-fi world. You are an escaped android, with a malfunctioning body, a price on your head and no memory of your past. Get a ship, find a crew, and take on contracts while you navigate across the Starward Belt.
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Cibola Burn foreshadowing end of Leviathan Falls
"and... And what is civilization if it isn't people talking to each other over a goddamn beer?" Fayez said, then lolled his head back over his shoulder. "Am I right?"
"Fuckin' A," Amos called back.
😁
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Catching Little Things Since the Auctions
Read the books twice, only watched the series through once. Started a Rewatch the other night and now that I've seen all the props up close and out of universe through the auction, I'm loving all the silly little things I'm noticing.
Particularly the reuse of the Cant/Knight deck. Episode 2 as they frantically try to close the airlock manually, and seeing the proper doors very lightly and rickety rocking back and forth before gently tapping together somehow making a solid enough locking they can pressurize the cabin. It's so silly looking to me now but it's such a nice little production charm knowing it's practical and relatively low budget versus all the super impressive CG ship and space scenes.
Anyone else have favorite little things like this? I'd love to keep an eye out for them as I rewatch!
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Just finished the books…
I watched the show in its entirety about 3-4 years back. It made me want to read the books, which I did over the course of another 3 years (paused and put it down a lot). Just finished book 9. Wow. I’m not really sure how to feel about that ending?
I mean I guess it’s a positive in the sense that the dark gods are gone and won’t try to kill humanity, right? But on the other hand, everything is gone. Everyone but Amos (of all people) is dead, the gates and any knowledge of those builders are gone. And I guess some hyper advanced human civilization has formed, but we aren’t given any insight into that.
I guess a little bit of this is just the feeling that comes when you finish something that took so long and felt like such a regular part of life. But yeah, I don’t know. I feel a bit odd. It’s hard to describe. I guess I want more, I want to know what happens next. What about you, what did you guys feel like when you finished the books?
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Why didn't they just destroy Medina Station?
I was watching Season 6 and they talk about how if Marco Inaros couldn't be allowed to make it into the Ring Space as the farms on Medina Station would provision them indefinitely. One of Avasarala's aides mentioned how they could send in a swarm of fast moving nukes, but gets shot down because the Ring Station might obliterate the station which is fair enough. My question is, why didn't they instead just send a swarm of regular plasma torpedos to blow up Medina Station? From what I can tell, the Free Navy was pretty much in full retreat to the Ring Space, leaving the coalition fleet able to interdict the supply depots Marco spun up in the belt. I seem to recall how in the books, the colonies at this point were far from self sustaining. I find it unlikely that they could provision the entire Free Navy at this point, not just in terms of food, but fuel and munitions. If Medina Station were destroyed, couldn't Earth and Mars just starve them out, reconsolidate their hold across the system, and then send torpedo pot shots across the ring, slowly whittling down Free Navy ships in the RIng Space? Sure the railguns would still be a threat, but slowly, without Medina Station and the Free Navy supporting them, they'd eventually be a non issue?
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Can I read the short stories that happen during, before and after book 1 right after book 1?
I'm in the last 50 pages of book 1
I know that technically going by publishing date there is only one short story that I can read but I was wondering if I should read them or not, even the ones that came out years later, or if that spoils future plots
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(The Expanse) Drummer and Ashford | Live as a Belter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BgX8a3W1S0
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Spoiler Seasons 1-3 Trying to understand Miller’s infatuation with Julie Mao
Disclaimer: I watched up through Season 3 while the show was on SyFy. I’m catching up now that I have Prime by re-watching from the start. Up to Season 2 ATM.
I recently saw a critique of Leviathan’s Wake by an LGBTQIA commenter on YouTube. One of their strongest criticisms of the book was Miller’s character and his obsession with Julie, something that could have only been cooked up by ‘two cisgender white males.’
Even though I’m a member of that particular demographic myself, I’m having a lot of trouble with that particular ‘relationship’ myself. Miller had never even met Julie, yet became completely infatuated with her. It seems one of the most unrealistic facets of any otherwise highly believable book (in terms of human nature anyway.) While I’m fully aware that things like celebrity crushes and stalking do happen, Julie was not a celebrity - rich girl background notwithstanding. And I’d think Miller’s cynical personality would make him immune to that sort of foolishness.
Anyone have a good explanation for this, other than that the plot required it?
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Second Listen Through
I just want to say how awesome it to listen/read again after knowing everything, Miller in particular. Once you know exactly what the Protomolecule is (big shout out to a couple big threads in here that really broke it all down) the things Miller says makes so much sense when framed in the right context. I’m currently at the part where Holden sees all the solar systems and the stars blinking out and it’s just so badass.
The Expanse is a master class in modern scifi and the major inspiration for the stuff I write. Just wanted to share my appreciation.
Cheers
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